Dr. Sarah Smith [00:00:04]:
Welcome to the sustainable clinical medicine podcast. I am your host, Sarah Smith. I am a practicing rural family physician and the charting coach. This is the podcast for physicians and advanced practice providers who are ready to step back from the busyness of their clinical day to share ideas, question everything, and redesign their clinical day. We are redesigning clinical medicine to create sustainable clinical days and create time for our lives outside of medicine. Join us for discussions with world experts who are helping design sustainable models of clinical medicine and the physicians or clinicians who have discovered or designed sustainable models of clinical medicine for themselves.
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:00:49]:
Hello, everybody, and welcome back. Today, we have with us doctor Kristin Jacob, who comes with to us from Corewell Health West, and she's very interesting in the things that she is doing. So welcome. We're gonna let you introduce yourself.
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:01:03]:
Wonderful. Thank you so much for having me. Kristin Jacob, I am a practicing internal medicine pediatrics physician. I'm also the site lead of my practice and then serve as the medical director for our office of physician and APP fulfillment at Corwell Health West in Michigan.
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:01:21]:
That's so great. Okay. So tell us about your journey, in because it sounds like you're double boarded, with all of those pieces of your work. So tell us about your journey through medicine and residency. How'd that go?
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:01:35]:
Yeah. Absolutely. So I, entered medicine. I had actually been exposed to internal medicine and pediatrics, which is a dual, specialty, and had been exposed to it early on and just loved the idea idea of being able to serve across the spectrum, and the the methodology of the training program. And I also entered medical school knowing I wanted to do clinical medicine and, sir, had a lot of interest outside of medicine as well. So I always knew I wanted to walk into somewhat of a clinical leadership or or or other, activities outside, something in administration or or other activities that also fueled my interest. So it kind of meets a lot of my goals that's being in primary care. Curiosity is a huge top value to me, and that's resonates, I think, in my specialty that I you know, definitely a generalist and and appreciate that.
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:02:34]:
And then also in my interests that are right alongside and within medicine.
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:02:40]:
Wow. Very good. Now I heard, well, through your bio that you're running this business of medicine elective for your residents right now. And I'm so curious how you got into that. What was it that made you wanna go and learn some more about this, and and what is it?
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:02:58]:
Yeah. Absolutely. So, the business of medicine rotation is a 2 week elective that we offer at Cornwall Health West to all of our residents and fellows. It's a variety of, didactic lectures, field trips where they go visit different sites, workshops, discussions, and really focused on the topics of introducing, the topics such as basics of finance and medicine, our payment models, insurance, the politics that have driven health care to be the way that it is. We'll also look at topics like personal finance and how to arm ourselves as we as they're transitioning into practice. And then really is very focused on career preparedness. So we do an interview workshop, have preparations for CV building. We expose them to a number of different settings.
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:03:58]:
So what does it look like to practice in a large academic institution, a small private practice, direct primary care, concierge medicine? What are all these different models that health care could look like to try to get them exposed to as they're entering into the next phase? What should they walk into eyes wide open, looking at health care systems? And then we also touch on topics related to leadership, wellness, DE and I. So just kind of a catch all for essentially, the premise was, what are all the things that we really should have been trained in residency but aren't in the clinical curriculum? But if we wanna thrive as physicians and practice, we really need to have the wherewithal. And on the premise that if we are going to change and improve health care, it's going to be us as physicians. So let's arm ourselves with the knowledge so we can be really impactful leaders to improve the environments in which we work.
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:04:58]:
Wow. Interesting. So where did this interest come from? Like, when did you start to do this work for yourself? Why why did you need this?
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:05:09]:
Yeah. The business of medicine in particular, it actually started, I think, when I was an intern in in residency clinic. We'd have our continuity clinic, and it was one of my favorite times, you know, by, really the mentors, med peds mentors and attendings would be there, and we'd have a little bit you know, you'd have time to socialize. And and it was a time when in the medical group, there was a lot of change going on, a lot of small practices becoming part of the medical group, some hard times. And so I respected these physicians so much, and they're such astute clinicians and so much respect for them. But I was also hearing a lot of, frankly, victim mentality, a lot of I am not happy in this large system, and so much of the narrative of medicine is so hard. But I and I just decided, I don't wanna go through this 4 years of really hard training and end up on the other side in a place where I'm not fulfilled, where I'm very much feeling, a victim of the system. Like, there's got to be a way that I can educate myself so that I don't end up in that position, and I can have a long sustainable career in this profession that I love.
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:06:24]:
And so that was really where I started to explore. There's got they wanna learn more about the business. Why are these changes happening? No one likes them. I know that, but why? There's gotta be a why. And so that was what really drove me to start learning just my own reading, talking to mentors. And in residency, I started a quarterly evening series, so where I would just find speakers, and we'd go somewhere and talk with residents and faculty. And and then that evolved into a more formal rotation that's been sustainable over the last, almost 10 years. So
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:07:01]:
yeah. Great. Yeah. And what about the residents who are saying yes to this elective? Are they coming into it with this curiosity, or are they already feeling the something happening that's not good in them Mhmm. In what they're seeing, and that's driving them to sign up? Any Yeah.
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:07:21]:
That's a great point. I think that most of, the residents are showing up because they do have some. One, they just want more preparedness for entering into their careers. So as they're exploring, we target our, our later stage, PGY years that are starting to enter into thinking about their next step, whether it's fellowship or or practice. So, a lot of times that's the main driver, but I'm sure that, you know, they're training in very large health care systems with attendings who are often employees or affiliated, with these systems and are seeing all the change. And and frankly, as a resident, as you're bouncing around, you do feel like you have very little scope of control in those changes are that might be affecting your practice site. So it's certainly part of the narrative that we're trying to empower them to realize that you can take control of what your career looks like and arm yourself with the knowledge to be a leader that as physicians, we are all leaders, whether we'd like it or not, as we continue to move through our careers.
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:08:33]:
Yeah. Yeah. What was it that made you interested in getting a leadership position? You said it was just something different. Is it the variability of career pieces? What what do you think that might have been?
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:08:49]:
So I think there is probably a couple things. So, yes, I knew that I was someone that has a lot of curiosity and interest and that I didn't see myself seeing patients 5 days a week that I wanted to have a lot of different interests. So just the even MedPeds offers that level of variation and variability that I think helps with longevity. So that was part of it. But, also, I really love I'm an idea person. I love to think about how can we do things better. I love to see the opportunity that could be for a new idea, new collaboration, doing something better, especially when it's doing something better to serve patients or to take care of the people serving patients. So, and knowing that the means to often get things done and make change is as a leader.
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:09:45]:
So that was how things, I think, namely evolved.
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:09:50]:
Got it. Was there any, leadership things you'd done previous to medicine or early in medicine, that had given you this idea that that it wasn't a scary place to be? Anything like that?
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:10:05]:
It's a great question. One of the most formative experiences that I was so lucky to have was, my program director had nominated me to be on the ECGME residency review committee for internal medicine early on in residency. And so this is, the ECGME is the accrediting body for all residency programs in the United States, and, on those committees are some of the most esteemed professionals in our specialties that are and they, have a resident representative that serves for my term was 3 years on that committee. And so we would meet, a number of times a year and do the work of, accreditation and going through all the applications, but then also twice per year, they would convene all of the residents that were representing the different boards and specialties. And we'd meet with the ACGME leaders, and they would kind of use this as a think tank to think about addressing specific topics. And my very first meeting, this would have been back in 2014, in the fall. They completely, changed the agenda a few weeks before because, sadly, that summer of month into internship, 2 interns in New York City had died by suicide, and it had gotten a lot of press in the lay press. It was demanding a response from leaders in medical education around the United States, and one of the ways that ACGME was responding was by starting to really, organize around dedicated efforts for physician well-being.
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:11:50]:
So I feel so grateful that I was part of that organization as they were building their strategy to address this. And I was kind of with that organization for 3 years as that was starting to grow, and it really helped bring a lot of insight and passion to myself. And then I have the back those learnings to our own organization and started our resident and fellow wellness program, when I upon graduation. So I do definitely, think that it's unique experience, for kind of guiding that niche that has been part of my career.
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:12:28]:
Yeah. Yeah. Tell us about the wellness because this is a lot of physicians and APPs that you're talking about. I think, 1,000. Right? And what is the well, what is, I guess, what is the how has the wellness program transitioned? What have you been doing within that?
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:12:50]:
Yeah. So we had, at Corvo Health West, we had a resident and fellow program before we had any dedicated system wide efforts. And so we had started to develop programming, and and now there's many more best practices out there for how to do it. And either this some of our medical staff leaders caught wind of this. There had been kind of a very dormant wellness committee from years past that got revived that I was asked to sit on. And then the conversation just started to evolve within the medical staff leadership that there needed to be more, than just a committee. We should really start thinking about formal infrastructure. And I really think the, the leadership and and and vision of our our CEO to recognize that this needs dedicated investment.
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:13:49]:
And so we were, lucky enough to be asked to create a business plan and had formal, plans to open our office of physician app fulfillment. So this was late 2019 when I then moved into the medical director role. And at the time, it was myself and an operational dyad. And then 3 months later was a a worldwide pandemic. So it was a very good time to have at least a small amount of infrastructure, to try to help respond to that. And over the last few years, we have grown our team. We have established a number of foundational signature programs that support the well-being of our physicians and EPPs, including, confidential one to one mental health support. We have peer support, a peer support program.
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:14:45]:
We have group and one to one coaching programs. We have a program called med up that fosters community and camaraderie with small groups of physicians and APPs. We have a well-being champion network, and then we use a validated tool every year, the well-being index that, helps drive a lot of our strategy and follow-up, targeted interventions. So it's evolved quite a bit over the last 5 years.
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:15:17]:
Yeah. Do you find that it's the culture that people are engaged in the world as before they need it? Or is it that they're being reminded of it if somebody notices? Are people more likely to notice if people are struggling? What have you kind of sensed about this program?
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:15:39]:
Yeah. Great point. I think that one thing that I reflect on with my team that brings me joy is that we are often not the ones in the room talking about wellness. Like, there has definitely been a culture shift at our organization that it's more top of mind, than it was 5 years ago. I think to your point, we still have colleagues that are showing up at every stage of the game. You know, when we started this work, sometimes the colleagues I was serving were the hardest to sell on the programs we had. And, you know, so much of our programming talks about just that we exist and have trained in this medical culture. We pride ourselves on being, tough on not asking for help on not caring for ourselves and putting our patients first before us.
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:16:35]:
And so it is so deeply ingrained in our fabric. We have a lot of work to do to start to unwind that and start to think differently. But I do think that we are absolutely starting to see that be a much more comfortable conversation. And ideal state would certainly be we're talking preventatively about what can we do, before we get to the point of burnout, and how are we checking in on one another when we notice those signs? And those are absolutely key concepts that we talk about. We've recently I one of the mental health providers on my team shared a story about someone that, she is working with who actually in one of our open venues of programming had reached out for help just said in the middle of it, I need to talk to someone. I need help. And so that was definitely a wonderful sign of culture change that someone could felt comfortable reaching out. And as she would had been working with him who happened to be a later stage career physician, this all was very foreign to him about, you know, talking about these common themes that many of us deal with.
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:17:51]:
And he made the comment to us that, you know, I mentioned to my colleagues who are young, you know, early stage career that I'm seeing a therapist or a mental health provider, and they were just openly talking about how they go to counseling. Just like it was not a big deal. Like, doesn't everybody do that? And so he was so surprised, but also just encouraged because he's gotten so much out of it. He's like, I'm gonna start talking about it to people too. So, I love to hear those little stories of, like, actually starting to move the needle on culture change where this is not a taboo. It is not a a perception that we are weak to be taking care of ourselves, so that we can take care of our patients.
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:18:40]:
Yeah. Now you were mentioning the the kind of story of how we kind of got to meet each other, with one of your APPs coming up to your office to tell you about some changes she'd made in her day. Do you wanna take us through that kind of journey with for us?
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:18:58]:
Yes. So we had a colleague of ours come to, our team that just ecstatic about the charting coach program that, her and another colleague on her team had gone through and had just really revolutionized the way that they were thinking about charting, the habits that they had and had really affected their quality of life and came to us saying, like, we have we we want to share this with more people. How do we get the good word out about this program? And so, a couple things have happened from that. So, a couple of our team members have taken your course, the physician both the physician and the APP version and learned about the content ourselves, and and use that personally. And then we also purchased a number of additional courses that then we reached out actually to the people that, we'd keep track of kind of who is struggling with chart closure and, might be coming up as outliers with struggling with work outside of work. And so we actually targeted that high risk group and individually invited them to take that course. And that was how we targeted a population, that would really be high needs for such an intervention like that. And then we've also been very much promoting the charting coach and and, as just a supplemental resource to you know, we have informatics, a wonderful informatics team that does a lot with the individual epic optimization.
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:20:37]:
And the way that we framed this is that you can have every tool at your disposal. You might be fully optimized in epic, but if you don't have the mindset shift and the practice style and the habits to see a patient close a chart and, and all of the other mentality that goes into it, you might still struggle with, chart closure and reducing your after hours work. So, I think that people are starting to understand, okay, this is more than just the smart phrases. There's a lot more to the psychology of charting that exists.
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:21:17]:
Mhmm. So interesting. I noticed that you said that when we we know who isn't doing their charting. Is that something that comes up because it is required by the organization, or it's a measure of wellness? Like, where where is the curiosity about that those stats and then that idea?
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:21:39]:
Yeah. So we definitely consider looking at work outside of work, which we define as I wouldn't say that that metric isn't technically defined as the chart closure, but, after hours charting on your days off or your administrative days off. So we do keep a pulse on that and try to look for outliers. And then we do have a designated report that comes out publicly to leaders every month that has, chart delinquency and is on, I would say more heavily promoted in the last couple years. And so our policy is 3 business days. So it definitely is motivating for a lot of people, and then there are certainly a handful of people that despite that are very much outliers. So it is it breaks my heart every time I see that someone has dozens, hundreds of charts open and the weight that must be on their shoulders to show up as a amazing physician or APP and be have that weight on their shoulders. So we are certainly keeping an eye on those people.
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:22:55]:
We encourage them to get involved in our coaching program. We, periodically, we'll just make sure they know about all these resources in a very tailored way. But a lot of times, there's a there's a story behind every one of those, you know Mhmm. People on that list that are struggling. And and a lot of times, they're also the same people that my patients come back to me saying, this was the best doctor I've ever seen in my life. They spent so much time with me. I felt so taken care of. And so it's such a conflict of values, and is something that sadly a lot of times our system isn't set up for.
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:23:34]:
Mhmm. Yeah. The reason I asked was the we see I mean, I get to see all of the stories, I guess. But what I'm interested in is, 1, there is that delinquency list being generated by the organization. But I see a lot of organization to, try the stick approach, and what I'm curious about is this carrot approach. So the stick of you'll be fined, you'll be taken out of work for multiple days or for a week until you've got this under control. You know, there'll be performance reviews that are happening frequently, which can be good. Absolutely.
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:24:17]:
I'm not saying it's always a punishment, but it certainly can feel additionally weighted for the person who's going to this performance review about something that they're having trouble with. And then you're coming at it with an additional approach of, hey. We've got somebody who can be with you and look after you and listen to you and be kind to you and validate and help you through this. Plus, we can add in resources for this, which is a very cool approach if I might say so.
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:24:54]:
Yeah. I think there's more more that could even be done. Of course, that's, I think, always so much to do, but I you make a great point that I, I think that we need to continue to focus on those carrot approaches rather than just the punitive approaches. Absolutely.
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:25:16]:
Yeah. Yeah. It's just so fascinating to see how organizations can really take control of these things from so many different approaches, just like we do for equity, infinite possibilities. So it's lovely to see a story from a big organization that's doing things to help their clinicians and physicians. Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. Okay.
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:25:44]:
So you are a practicing physician in your clinical day, and then you went and added this charting course because somebody said it was a good idea. Mhmm. Tell us what changed about your day? Was there anything that stands out about what you were doing before and then you added some new ideas, skills, lessons, coaching, psychology? Tell us what about you? What happened?
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:26:08]:
Yeah. So I, for me, I consider myself pretty proficient. Even before this, I've been a huge cheerleader for all things epic optimization. Like, I'm pretty well optimized. And, you know, most days, I would get the vast majority of charts done, but I've had a pretty standard habit of waking up the next morning and spending quite a bit of, you know, at least a half hour, if not more finishing up charts from the prior day. And if there was a day that went haywire, then, then there was probably quite a few of them. And I have definitely committed to, the as much as possible, see 1 patient, close one chart. And that has really changed things.
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:26:58]:
The other thing that I'm challenging myself and not always doing well, but I tend to have a practice to I'd love to close those easy ones first. That dopamine hits so great. And those challenging longer visits that are more complex, those might be right on that 3 business days, and it's 3 times as hard to close it on a Saturday as it would would have been on that Thursday. So, I am definitely challenging myself to close the, the those harder charts as soon as close to the visit because I love that concept of, you know, you're essentially reliving that hard visit. So let's finish that, and it just feels that much better when you move through the hard. So that's those have been huge concepts for me. I think also the, backlog concept of just being really intentional with where I'm doing that time and also, like, putting it on my calendar rather physically or mentally to say, I will only give myself this 30 minutes to whether it's chart prep for the next day or close my charts, like, really being time sensitive, and putting boundaries that I'm setting for myself that align with my values for time, and and that's been really helpful.
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:28:26]:
Yeah. Wonderful. Is there anything else about the the current environment or the current residents coming through. They've been through COVID now. So anything about their their journey compared to yours that might be different that we should be aware of when we're looking after our colleagues?
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:28:53]:
It's a great question. I think that, you know, when I think about the health care landscape, I don't I think that there was a generation that certainly might have had a hit to their clinical skills and exposure due to the pandemic. I think we've kind of moved past that now where we are. I think that what's really interesting for those that are coming out now are they are training in organizations with tighter financial constraints than ever before in a post pandemic world. They are taking care of patients that are, coming in with their own, with with strong opinions and getting information from multiple sources as well as being advocates for their health in different ways, like access to wearables and, that they have access to in technology. And then also from a technology standpoint, knowing that they are growing up in a system very savvy with technology and are really having a lot of questions about when is that technology gonna start to work for me. I want to know about everything AI related that's going to leverage my job and make this so that I can care better for my patients. And so I do think it would be interesting to, and in fact, I have been using an AI documentation tool for the last year, 2 different products, and still at this and it's been fantastic.
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:30:27]:
Still the principles from the charting coach apply because you can have every tool at your at your fingertips. You still need to close the note, do the in basket, see patients in an effective way. And so the basics, the foundation, despite all the the potential technology coming at us, they still stand firm.
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:30:51]:
That is very interesting. I, I had not really put together the fact that the current graduates are seeing a lot of this technological advancement. You're right. You're totally right. And I am right now entering into a new health system, and I'm watching the current EMR, like the new EMR here in Australia, old EMR that I'm newly seeing. And I'm here that saying to my the person I'm orientating with Yeah. How do you get that out of your in basket quickly? Can you do this? Can you do that? No. We can't do that.
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:31:29]:
But it's a computer. Why can't it? Yes.
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:31:33]:
They are not intuitive. They were not built.
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:31:35]:
It's not intuitive. It's not built for us. It's clunky. It you you gotta do work arounds, even even epic. It's been around for a long time. It's big. It's not intuitive. It's gotta be, mastered and and crafted for yourself and your location.
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:31:53]:
It's like, oof. And you're saying to your your registrars, yeah. This is how we do it so that we can get, you know, out of here faster.
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:32:03]:
Mhmm. Yeah. I know. I feel like it you're absolutely right. And, you know, even systems like Epic, they were built as billing and coding tools. Right? Like, they weren't necessarily it was the afterthought to add in the clinicians. I I think I, you know, do see so much. I have so much optimism though about technology and, you know, so many major technological advances in all the different fields.
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:32:31]:
You know, usually, those first 10 years are incredibly hard. I mean, I try to empower our trainees like you, I have trained you, our training in one of the most challenging times of healthcare that we've had with just where we're going with what healthcare systems are doing, from emerging and growing standpoint. And then, you know, when I started training, it was still paper charts. So we're still very much in that early stage of technological revolution from the standpoint of the EMR. We're Mhmm. We are just getting into the optimization phase of this kind of technology, and there's so much on the horizon. We're gonna see so many third party vendors that are coming into EMRs that are gonna make things better than easier for us. And I just so firmly believe we're still very much in that messy middle.
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:33:24]:
But I feel so optimistic about what's to come and that there seems to really be a deep understanding for the importance of and especially in the landscape of a shortage of clinicians that we need to have us be working at the top of our license in the most efficient way, and let's use technology to do that.
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:33:45]:
Yeah. I hear all good points in there. There is not enough clinicians and physicians right now that we are in the messy middle, that we have got a generation of doctors who still have some paper charts as part of their career, that there is advancements coming and they should be helpful, and that we're working in health care systems that are poor, like financially poor right now compared to where they might have been previously. I hear a lot of physicians and clinicians talking about, we used to have 3 or 4 in our team, and now we're down to 2. And we have to room this or room that or clean our own rooms. Or there's different things, workarounds that they're having to do that's new for them as well. So lots of challenges, lots of keeping pace with the technology, knowing that the first time you see it, it's probably not the fun time.
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:34:38]:
Right.
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:34:38]:
Haven't got all its glitches out. Yeah. Is there anything else that you wanted to bring today that we haven't talked about yet?
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:34:49]:
Not that I could think of. We've covered a lot. And just so grateful to have gone through the, charting coach to be able to use this my skills personally and then also translate them and what I've learned to the colleagues that I also coach, through our coaching program. And, you know, I've definitely taken my own experience, and I know these threads are coming through in that way too.
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:35:16]:
Mhmm. Yeah. How do people find you if they're wanting to connect with you or learn more about what you're doing at Cobalt Health West?
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:35:23]:
Yeah. So probably LinkedIn is the, best way, Kristen, Jacob, and, you can find me under my organization. So, yeah, I would absolutely love to connect.
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:35:35]:
Yeah. That that sounds really amazing. And if you, have other leaders listening in, and they are in this position of watching their physicians, registrar's APPs, and just feeling a sense that wellness could be something that they could formalize within their organization. What would you recommend? Because you really did a lot of advocacy for this program within your organization having come out of that resident representation. Tell us what you think might be helpful for organizations, if they want to increase the wellness for them.
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:36:14]:
Yeah. And I, there are certainly, luckily, many more best practices out there, and that are coming online. So some of the key resources that I'll often turn to are the National Academy of Medicine. They have a coalition on clinician well-being. They have a very detailed white paper that came out in 2019, but then that's really been built upon by a lot of their online resources. They have a really great framework with 6 different domains that I often reference when thinking about strategy and, and implementing well-being work in an organ large or complex organization. The other, resource that, the American Medical Association has so much impressive work that supports clinician well-being. Their AMA steps forward program has wonderful modules about every topic you can think of.
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:37:16]:
I've used and translated so many of those into my own clinical practice. And then they also have the AMA joy in medicine recognition program, and this is a true playbook for organizations, what they need to be doing to achieve bronze, silver, and gold recognition, and it really uses evidence to highlight if you have, you know, the these resources, the bare minimum, this is what you should be doing as an organization. And then lastly, one of the other key, resources that I often reference is from doctor Vivek Murthy was a, an advisory statement that he put out a couple years ago in the wake of COVID for a call to action for all health care worker well-being and just details, his recommendations from his vantage point of what health care organization should be doing, what our payers should be doing, our regulatory bodies, our communities, our individuals, our patients. So, definitely such a coalition of so much research and, and best practice in that statement as well.
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:38:27]:
Wow. Yeah. That's a very good and comprehensive list. Thank you.
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:38:31]:
Yeah.
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:38:31]:
I am very glad I tapped your brain for those. Yeah. Because I think that there are there are physicians in leadership who are really wanting to bring forward some resources for their organizations. And if they're armed with tools like white papers and, reports and even awards, that's awesome. What a wonderful thing for them to get started with. Well, thank you so much for this conversation.
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:38:56]:
Yeah. Thank you for having me today.
Dr. Kristin Jacob [00:38:58]:
Alright, everybody have a wonderful rest of your week. Bye.
Dr. Sarah Smith [00:39:02]:
Thank you for being part of the sustainable clinical medicine podcast. If you'd like to learn more or join us to help you get home with today's work done, go to chartingcoach dotca. There you'll find all the information on the premier lifetime access charting champions program that is helping physicians get home with today's work done with all the proven tools, support, and community you need to create time for your life outside of medicine. We would love to see you there. Until next time. Thanks for listening.
